A guy who made a game. The end.
Mar 6th, 2008 by Matt Snyder
This week has been strange. I’ve been working my ass off (put in about 14 hours yesterday), going to class, trying to buy a new car, trying to get my computer fixed, my daughter had the flu. The list goes on.
Meanwhile, Mr. Gary Gygax died. And, seriously, I don’t give a damn.
Let me attempt to explain.
I think it’s sad that this guy from Wisconsin died a tad bit earlier than most folks do these days, and sad that he had a wife and several kids. That’s death. I grew up around a funeral home. I’ve seen my fair share of sad people and said stories. It’s too bad Gary, the person from Wisconsin who was a dad and all that, died.
But, I’m so far disinterested in whether Mr. Gary Gygax the nerd celebrity is no longer here. He hasn’t been relevant to me since about 1989. Who cares? Not me. Obviously, lots of other people care. Good for them.
This existential grief notion that “OMIGOD, Where would I be without Gary?!?” is baffling to me. You’d be doing something else, I guess. But, who cares? You didn’t do something else. You aren’t doing something else. You’re playing role-playing games. And that’s cool.
More importantly, you’re still be responsible for youself, just like you would be without Gary. You’d either be a social fuck-up or you wouldn’t. You’d have friends because of stuff you did with them for fun, or you wouldn’t. Gary’s not responsible for your life! He’s just a guy. He made a game. You liked it and played it. It was an activity. You turned it into a lifestyle. You decided to form your identity around it. Gary’s no more responsible for you doing that than Dr. Naismith is responsible for kids shooting each other for basketball shoes. I mean, consider, would anyone take you seriously if you said “Thank god for Milton Bradley games! If I hadn’t played Monopoly, I wouldn’t have been interested in business. And, if I hadn’t done that, blah blah blah, now I have a house and I’m a lawyer.” What? No. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Remember all those supposed millions of people who played D&D in the late 70s / early 80s, but dont’ anymore? Guess what? They played the game. They had fun. They left it at that. They didn’t choose to make that activity who they were. And, you know, most of them left it behind because they had other stuff to do. But some of them left it behind because they didn’t like being around the people who made it a lifestyle.
My older brother, who jokes about his awkward days playing D&D in the early 80s (and no longer does) got to laughing about the odd news about Gary Gygax this week. He thinks it’s hilarious that I’ve seen the man at GenCon. It’s kind of a joke we share. Whatever. But, you know, his joke this week was pretty troubling.
“I read his obit you sent me. Gary said he enjoyed the social nature of the hobby. Oh yes! You mean the social nature of … playing in Mom & Dad’s basement?!”
We laughed. But, you know? He’s right. Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame is giving Gary a lot more credit than he deserves. You and your friends earned that by what you did. Gary didn’t even order the pizza for Christ’s sake.
He made a fun game. He had a life and a family and did lots of stuff. He died. He was just a guy from Wisconsin. Ok? Ok.
I’m not half as sad that Gary died as I am sad that the hobby still defines itself as a lifestyle rather than as an activity.
Wow. How about the idea that people are just thankful for the life of someone who created something that brought them a lot of happiness?
But I guess you are still struggling with trying to undefine yourself as a geek. Good luck with that.
Hi, walker (conan?), welcome to my Heads or Tales blog.
You’re welcome to reply in dissent here. I urge you to think about things. I share many of the values the gaming subculture cherishes. But, other values I do not appreciate. Indeed, that I don’t line up with your reactions is important to me because I think too often we just go with the flow to the detriment of the hobby we mutually enjoy. You aren’t obliged to agree.
As far as struggling to undefine myself as a geek, there is no struggle. I don’t define myself as a geek. It’s that simple. My point is that I think the hobby generally assumes or even requires that self-definition for participation. I think this sucks. Again, you certainly don’t have to see it my way.
Have a good one,
Matt
Yeah, death sucks. It sucks a whole lot.
As for the emotional reactions to Gary’s death, I suppose it matters to people in the same way that it matters which team wins the Superbowl. Or it matters the same way Diana’s death mattered to a whole lotta brits ten years ago.
Matt, its okay. You can cry. We won’t make fun of you. Let it out, man. Let it out.
I don’t get it. If I was saddened by Mr. Gygax’s passing, that means I’m a stinky fatbeard who likes RPGs in a way that’s unhealthy? If I’m grateful for him essentially creating a hobby that I really enjoy, and in which both you and I invest a lot of time and effort, I’m supposed to feel bad because I’m obviously misconstruing RPGs as a lifestyle rather than an activity?
Matt, what’s the real point you’re trying to make? There’s some commentary on gamers in general buried in this rant, I gather.
Hi, Buzz.
I’m glad you’re grateful to Gygax for creating a hobby you enjoy.
Please note that nowhere in my post have I said anything even remotely like “and thus you are stinky / lame / fat / whatever.” Nowhere. I was hyper-aware of these stereotypes, and how broadly ignorant and silly they are, when I wrote this. Please don’t accuse me of saying things I absolutely did not say. You’re seeing things there that absolutely are not there.
One thing I DID say was that, yes, I personally think gaming should be an activity not a lifestyle. I did not say that you should feel bad about it. It’s just not there. Again, hyper-aware when I wrote it. This is me, about my opinions. You’re going to have to work hard to show me that I said something like “You gamers all suck, you should feel bad for sucking, and I hate you” instead of “Personally, I wish the hobby worked another way.”
Finally, the most important piece that you seem to be missing is that this is, in fact, me saying “I think people who play RPGs are actually much more well-adjusted than they themselves seem to be saying.” In other words, I think all the Gygax sturm and drang contributes to the ongoing perception both among the general public AND among “gamers” that gamers are weird, weak outcasts. In fact, they’re not.
“Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame is giving Gary a lot more credit than he deserves.”
You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that you stick by it.
Just as I am entitled to my opinion that Gary Gygax made a significant impact on my life and I would like to grieve his passing without the hip, ironic, “I understand gamer nerds but I am in no way a nerd myself” insinuation that I am somehow ‘less cool’ or ‘less well-adjusted’ than you because this event matters to me.
Now excuse me while I return to my well-adjusted, socially-active lifestyle that just happens to include RPGs.
Hello, Multipleegos —
I agree. Thank you for affirming our mutual rights to opinion.
I can assure you that my post is not about being hip, nor ironic and cooler-than-thou. It’s not about me setting myself apart to make myself feel better. I totally understand why you read that there. But, it’s just not there.
Rather, for me it’s about my wish for the activity of role-playing to expand outside of the “gamer” subculture. That’s it, without holier-than-thou judgment.
That is, I like the activity of role-playing a lot. It’s really fun! But, I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that as an activity currently, it’s largely limited to a subculture, and that subculture expects its members to behave in certain ways (for example, to cherish Gary Gygax in certain ways that I don’t really agree with).
I’m not saying that the subculture is “beneath” me or whatever. Lots of people are reading that into my post. I’m plainly saying the subculture just isn’t my thing. It’s not a judgment of “those people” being less than me. It’s a judgment that says, huh, I, Matt Snyder, just don’t get the thrill out of the subculture and being in it like other people do. And, since I don’t, it’s too bad that generally speaking no one outside the subculture of “gamers” is actually playing role-playing games! I’d love to see that happen.
Finally, I do indeed presume that your life is well-adjusted and socially active. That’s awesome! So is mine.
Have a good one,
Matt
To me, your reaction seems to encourage a geeky self-identified sub-culture. If you’ll notice, most of the mainstream media has treated Gygax’s death as they would treat the death of any other originator of a cultural movement. That’s because, though actual tabletop RPG’ing is generally not heard about much in the mainstream culture, its impact has been and is recognized for doing so. Videogames, movies, general computer geek culture are all recognized as having been strongly influenced by Gygax’s invention.
When I see thread after thread in gratitude for Gary, I see the same thing that happens in the sports world when a major athlete dies or in the horror movie world when a major director dies. It’s just fans feeling sad and saying “thanks for what you gave me”. And he did give us something. And it was something that often took place in our formative years. I’m sure there are a lot of people from my generation who will have the same reaction when John Hughes dies.
It is you who seem to be turning that reaction into some insular, self-identifying and self-separating behaviour by a marginalized sub-culture, which is why I made the comment above about you trying to redefine yourself. It seems like you are experiencing shame at our behaviour and shame is the classic indicator of geeky self-loathing and something that has been slowly disappearing from our hobby.
Please be aware that I am not calling you out for being insensitive. I too often have a backlash reaction against kneejerk emotions to death. I was in new york during 9/11 and was really aghast at all the wailing and self-righteousness that event entailed. So I have no problem with you not feeling sad. It’s your reaction against people identifying with the activity to such an extent that it becomes a lifestyle. That is a natural behaviour among fans (see sports, tv shows, arts & crafts, driving) and I don’t think it is any more extreme in our hobby than in any other.
Finally, it’s coincidental that I had just cracked open Dust Devils two days ago (in preparation for an Aces & Eights campaign; I’m considering doing a one-shot of Dust Devils with the same characters and setting after the campaign is done and just to get a more narrative perspective on the western). I’ve only read half of it, but the author of that book does not seem like the same person as the author of this blog post.
Word to your mother. I got notified he died and thought, “oh?” Then finished my coffee. I didn’t know the guy from Adam as the saying goes and really don’t give a shit. Like you said, it sucks for that family, but when any celebrity of any stripe and any industry dies, why the fuck should I care? Ain’t my friend, ain’t my family. I care more for the cat I accidently hit on my ride to work this morning than Mr. Gygax. Shit I cared so little this is my first commentary on it, and I comment on everything…
So it is a shame for his family, but like I said before, who gives a damn?
Walker, I hear you. Please stop assuming I’m self-loathing and all that. I’ve already responded to it previously in reply #8.
I’m disappointed that I “seem” like I’m filled with shame and self-loathing. I can only assure you that is not the case.
Thanks for checking out Dust Devils! I geniunely hope you enjoy it!
-Matt
Hi Matt,
I’m not sure if this post was link baiting or if you genuinely think it’s only “gamer subculture” that’s written about Gary, D&D, and what it meant to them over the years.
Remember all those supposed millions of people who played D&D in the late 70s / early 80s, but dont’ anymore? Guess what? Those are the people who are talking about this.
Read the news: http://news.google.ca/news?q=gygax
Check out the group + event on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10857697050
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=11208127045
We’re talking about people from all sorts of backgrounds. People outside the “gamer subculture”, many of whom haven’t played D&D (or ANY rpg) in *decades* reflecting on how it helped them when they were kids, or planning to get together with friends this weekend, dust off the old books, and have another game.
If you really want to see people outside the subculture of “gamers” actually playing role-playing games, maybe this is a good time to take a look around you.
Stuart
Matt,
I’m not sure why you assume (or seem to assume) that there’s a sizable contingent out there mourning for or “clinging” to Gary out of any attempt to not feel alone in our “nerd shame”.
“Nerd shame?” What does Gary’s death have to do with that? What I’ve seen over the past few days are plenty of folks mourning the loss of either a friend, a hero, or an inspiration. There are folks mourning someone whom they felt had a positive influence in their life, and contributed to a hobby they loved. I just don’t see where any “nerd shame” enters into it.
Yeah, its a group of people who share a common hobby (for the most part) grieving the loss and celebrating the life of a great contributor. Music fans did the same when John Lennon died. I just don’t see what it matters to you that its a game or a lifestyle to some people. Its your right to care about that, but I don’t see why you’d trot this out while people are mourning the loss of an icon/friend/inspiration of theirs. How does that add to a public perception that gamers are weird? Is it any weirder than when music, sports, or literary fans mourn the loss of someone whom they feel enriched their lives, gave them inspiration, or brought happiness to them? Why would this be any different?
I don’t think this “subculture” expects people to act certain ways. There are gamers I know who weren’t that torn up about Gary’s death. But they didn’t broadcast it in frankly, somewhat inflammatory terms, nor did they attempt to use the issue as a soapbox on what they wanted roleplaying to be. To me, that’s just poor form.
Hi, Zack
You recognize the irony of defending the subculture that supposedly doesn’t expect people to behave in certain ways by telling me how you expect me to act or write, yes?
Hi Matt,
I think that there’s a difference between expecting folks to act certain ways, and just calling someone out for bad form. Saying “I don’t give a damn” about a beloved figure’s death would be considered poor form in or out of most subcultures and groups. This isn’t a gaming thing–its a human thing. There’s a difference between expecting or demanding someone grieve (which I don’t) and being irked at an inflammatory, ill-considered, ill-timed posting.
Would you care to address anything else I wrote?
Thanks,
Zack
Matt, I agree with a number of your points, but I also strongly disagree with a number of them.
It is perfectly valid to note that someone did something good for you and to be thankful for that, and thus to mourn or take note of their passing, and make note of their contributions to your life.
We are not islands, us men, none of us. The typhoon and the sunny weather contribute both to where we end up, regardless that we’re the one building shelters and planting crops and surviving. The sun and rain are the context of our choices, the makers and removers of options, and so we pay respect to our gods.
And that’s what we’re doing here: we’re talking about respect. Now, I know a lot of guys in this hobby have serious issues with the very notion of simply respecting another human being above their own egotistical nerdiness, but I don’t think you’re one of those.
So maybe it helps to understand that is where such sentiment comes from. A bunch of people are showing respect to a man who brought them joy and fun, and people are saying, “Thanks, guy, for creating something that brought me fun and joy.” That’s not empty nerd hero-worship or gamer lifestyle with its hero icons. That’s basic humanity.
If you fall into a mineshaft, and the guy who pulled you out dies, you’re right to note the passing of someone who had a major positive effect on your life. Yeah, you kept breathing, you kept yourself warm, and maybe you’d still be alive at the bottom of the mineshaft living your life down there if he hadn’t — or maybe you’d be dead. It doesn’t matter that you might be doing something else, or you might be this, or you might be that, you aren’t.
You would like to argue that “D&D helped me get off drugs” or “kept me from killing myself” or etc. are invalid statements because the person themself did it. But “Gary Gygax brought me a hammer when I needed a hammer. Thank you, Gary,” is not empty sentiment or disassociation from personal responsibility. Maybe you would have found a hammer elsewhere, maybe you wouldn’t have, it doesn’t matter because you have to respect that someone brought you one when you needed it.
What you’re seeing in the gaming community is about respecting the individual’s contribution to a person’s life, directly or indirectly.
So if someone chooses to feel sad or make note of the passing of a community figure, regardless of whether or not he was “relevant” or “did anything NEW lately”, it isn’t “clinging to an identity” but “thanking someone for an activity.” That’s all.
Gary maybe didn’t bring the pizza, but he did bring the game.
Zack, we’re really going to have to disagree about this. You and several other self-identified gamers are mad at me because I didn’t properly respect Gary and his death by posting something on my own blog? I really, really can’t bring myself to feel bad about that. It is a subcultural expectation. It says “Matt, if you do this thing, we in the subculture will shun or chastise you because you’re not properly respecting someone we think you should. Also, you’re less of a human for having done this thing.” Really? I just don’t see it.
As for addressing other topics, I’ll talk about the phrase “nerd shame.”
You do understand that my entire point in using that phrase that people overcoming any personal anxieties or self-doubt is a tribute to their own value as strong-willed individuals, and not the consequence of some guy in Wisconsin “saving” them? In short: I’m saying gamers are pretty cool, normal people who should take credit for being cool, normal people.
It seems like you got emotionally frustrated and then missed that point. To clarify: In my experience, gamers are much more strong-willed and personally responsible than claims of “Gary saved my life, literally” would lead one to perceive.
Please go read it again if that’s helpful. I’m saying the credit for forming good friendships and overcoming self-confidence issues about being a nerd or whatever is due to the people who actually overcame those things and had fun with actual people they literally sat in a room with and played a fun game. The credit is not Gary Gygax’s. I want people to take more credit for their own well-being and happy social life.
People are free to cherish Gary Gygax and say they really appreciated his work. Great. I never said they can’t or shouldn’t do this. It’s just not in that post. Indeed, I said exactly that they can and should, when I said: “Obviously, lots of other people care. Good for them.”
If you’re reading “good for them” as ironical snark, you’re reading it wrong. It’s earnest.
Matt,
All I can say is, based on how folks (including myself) are reading this, whatever you were trying to communicate, didn’t get through. However you meant it, I don’t think it was a clean transmission, so to speak. Now its your blog, and no one can demand you feel a certain way. I think we’ll just have to leave it at that.
Thanks again,
Zack
Zack, thanks for commenting. I hope you stick around, like everyone else here.
I accept that my writing may not be clear to readers. I’m not changing it. That’s NOT because I’m trying to be stubborn. It’s actually for two other reasons.
First, because I’ve already said it and people responded. Changing it now would make their comments seem overly reactive and unfair after-the-fact. I respect your (and their) dissent.
Second, I encourage you to consider and trust that some people are reading a lot of insult where there was none intended and (in my view) none transmitted.
I’ve got some questions.
“This existential grief notion that “OMIGOD, Where would I be without Gary?!? …”
“Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame”
“Gary saved my life, literally”
Who is being called out here? I’d like to see some links to posts. I’m especially curious about the nerd shame thing. Who’s got the nerd shame, and how do you know they do?
I think of myself as a lifestyle gamer. I go to all my regional conventions, and I devote a night a week, minimum, to the hobby, because the games I play are best in the long form, and because momentum gets fragile if you’re playing biweekly or monthly. It’s this time commitment that makes me define myself as a lifestyle gamer. Making time is the hardest part, taking my busy schedule and wedging gaming into it. It means sacrificing other things. But I enjoy the hobby enough to make those sacrifices.
By this definition, you’re *way* more of a lifestyle gamer than me. Not only do you run games constantly, you’re burning time *writing* them as well. And publishing them, and marketing them, and ashcanfronting them, etc. You are not only playing the hobby, you are actively trying to advance it.
But it’s clear we don’t share the same definition of a lifestyle gamer. So, what’s a lifestyle gamer? (that’s a softball: you answered it by saying they “decided to form your identity around it [gaming]“). So let’s move past that question and ask, what are some of the symptoms that lifestyle gamers exhibit? How would you identify a lifestyle gamer? If I met you, how would I know that you’re not a lifestyle gamer? (Aside from the fact that you didn’t care when Gygax died, of course.)
Just wanted to say that I agree with Zack. Now that there’s been some discussion (here and elsewhere), I’m more in agreement with Mr. Snyder than I’d thought at the outset. The point of the post just needed some unearthing, at least for me.
Hello, John —
You raise excellent questions. First, and importantly, this is not new for me. I have been tooting my “un-geek” and lifestyle vs. activity horn for over two or three years now. In fact, people pejoratively refer to me as “that guy who wants to ungeek the hobby.” Fortunately, these people are angry clowns not worth worrying about. (See therpgsite.com if you must.)
Here are a couple other links:
Kuma takes my blog post and reacts against it, saying Gary saved his life as a middle-schooler by keeping him from drugs and suicide.
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5953&page=1#Item_29
I’m EXTREMELY glad Brian (that’s Kuma) is still with us and avoided hellish life. But, I don’t think Gary deserves too much credit Brian disagrees with me. That’s ok. I don’t know Brian well; he seems to be a superb person. And, whenever I read his posts, his happy, healthy enthusiasm for fun oozes!
Here’s a good friend of mine, Jason Blair, saying if it weren’t for Gary, he wouldn’t be happily employed as a computer game publisher.
http://amanofhats.livejournal.com/326794.html
Jason is a great guy. I really, really like him a lot. I think he deserves much more credit himself than Gary does for his current job and life.
As for me being a “lifestyle” gamer, I disagree. I don’t see it as “the amount of time involved.” I mean it as “do you revel in and agree with the subcultural identify of ‘gamer’?” And, I don’t. I’m not interested in all the stuff that “gamers” do and revel in and enjoy OUTSIDE of actually playing the games (things like fandom, and inside jokes, and difficult-to-understand histories of the scene, and so on).
I’ve written a subsequent blog post that may clarify a few things in that regard.
Have a good one,
Matt
Sorry, Matt, I have to agree: you critically failed your Communication: Writing skill check. The GM can now further complicate the scenario based on this roll, and I See your Raise. In all seriousness, your lack of clarity, which you are starting to address now, is the issue here.
For example, you challenged buzz to show you where you put down gamers, but multipleegos pointed it out pretty well: “Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame…” That’s a pretty judgemental, damning statement of gamers and anyone who is mourning Gary’s death, Matt. It’s why people are misreading you.
Whether you meant to or not, you characterized mourning as “clinging” and then accused the same mourners (gamers) of being “self-conscious” trying to “avoid feeling alone” “awkward” and of having “nerd shame”. People aren’t reacting to you “not showing proper respect”, but to the fact you keep spending a whole lot of time inside other people’s heads doing a hell of a lot of baseless psychoanalysis on individuals and whole groups. Worse, you’ve been defensive when called on it.
Again, an example, you say, “You and several other self-identified gamers are mad at me because I didn’t properly respect Gary…”, yet I don’t see that at all in Zack’s posts. What I do see is you not addressing the actual points he raised in favor of a bunch of “you’re angry” and “you want me to” defensive strategies.
No where does Zack say you HAVE TO respect Gary properly, or etc. though he does spend a paragraph explaining why so many gamers are doing so as a counter-point to your statement of why you think they’re doing so (”clinging” because “nerd shame” etc). I think if you re-read Zack’s points without trying to fortune-tell what’s going on inside his head and trying to tell him why he’s saying this or that you’ll actually see his points for what they are.
Raven, what do you want me to respond to? You’ve fired an awfully large shotgun blast.
You have good points. They are rehashing things I’ve already addressed. If you see them as defensive flailing, ok. That’s going to have to be ok between us (and Zack).
Also, you said you agree with some stuff. What?
Sorry, Matt, I thought my point was pretty clear and not all-over-the-place: playing pop-psychologist to support your contentions appears to be the core issue with the problem folks have had with your argument.
Less scatter-shot?
And yes, I see you have responded to things I addressed (FYI, I only saw a couple of the other replies after I posted). But, on to the stuff I agree about: gaming as an identity movement instead of an activity.
I completely agree that this is nonsense; “gamer” is a non-term at least when we’re using it to define a specific subculture (ie: behaviors, attitudes, likes/dislikes) or (where it really gets me) as a “brotherhood”. Yet gamers often seem to act as though this does.
“Oh, you play RPGs, therefore we should be friends,” is the idea, which is completely the opposite of what it should be.
We may both play RPGs or video games or whatever, but that does not make you my friend or part of my tribe. It doesn’t mean you aren’t, but the activity isn’t definitional of who we each are or what we believe.
In fact, you might game and be a complete ass representing everything I oppose! I know any number of gamers I wouldn’t let in my house or near my person.
We are not hippies or beatniks or mods. Hippies and beatniks and mods had a lifestyle, we have an activity. For comparison, is basketball a lifestyle? Do you consider yourself friends with everyone who plays basketball, that is, are they all in your tribe? So why do otherwise as a gamer?
I should not like you or want to be your friend BECAUSE OF gaming. Yet the subcultural expectation is that “We’re gamers, therefore we are friends.” That’s nonsense. Two people liking the same activity only gives them ONE point of commonality, it does not give them a secret handshake, a knowing nod, and a shared value system.
But there persists this notion that, “You’re a gamer so you should like…and dislike…and your home life was such-and-so…and you think this about that…and how dare you not…etc.”
I also agree with you about accepting self-responsibility for your own efforts and strengths, instead of saying it was some other thing who got you where you were. At least I agree to an extent.
I think you are right to note: Gary/D&D/gaming didn’t DO that for you, YOU did. Each person’s own efforts, personality, and strengths are something they need to consider and be proud of. “I did this” is a powerful personal statement.
However, while you want people to give themselves credit for where they are and who they are, it seems you are completely discounting the value of anything that might have contributed to their doing that or influenced that.
You say, “The hammer doesn’t swing itself.” I agree. I say, “You don’t swing a hammer you don’t have.” And I think you would agree.
Arguing the tools and suggestions other people give us along the way have no value in being recognized or as significantly contributing to our lives, or that seeing them as doing so somehow means we are failing to empower ourselves or recognize our own talents seems as nonsensical as arguing that our lives are all and only the result of the tools and suggestions of others.
Or to get all complex about it and go on and on like I usually do: there is a balance. Things do not simply spring fully-formed from the forehead of Zeus. Other people, situations, creations and so forth influence and guide us. Cultural evolution works the same as personal evolution, and you seem to be arguing for a denial of the basis for its occurrence when you reject the importance of recognizing the concrete influence of one thing upon another, that exposure to ideas or situations leads us places we simply wouldn’t have gone on our own without those things.
To put it simply: you can’t build a house without a hammer. It may be your sweat and tears and effort that makes it, but without that hammer…
Meaning I am confused at your seeming to push the point so hard and seeming to deny the validity of the reflection in cases like Brian’s and Jason’s, especially given that, frex, Jason, in saying, “Thanks, Gary, for getting me into gaming, it led me here,” is not discounting his own efforts or strengths, nor is Brian discounting himself in saying “D&D helped keep me away from drugs and suicide.”
Life is not a black-and-white scenario, where either you did it yourself or it was completely something else. I know I wouldn’t be where I am without the teachers I’ve had, the friends I’ve had, the games I’ve played, the books I’ve read, the people I’ve met, etc. I may be where I am because of me, but I am also equally where I am because of them. Man does not live in a void, nor does a man become himself in a void.
It seems to me you’re on one side of complaining about the other extreme, but I think most people — like Jason and Brian — are aware that it was them who did the walking, even if someone else drew the map. That’s fair. That’s the way the world works.
So, yes, self-empowerment! But I’m not sure what the deal is with the rest. If I’m misreading you there, please correct me.
–
Yet the subcultural expectation is that “We’re gamers, therefore we are friends.” That’s nonsense. Two people liking the same activity only gives them ONE point of commonality, it does not give them a secret handshake, a knowing nod, and a shared value system.
But there persists this notion that, “You’re a gamer so you should like…and dislike…and your home life was such-and-so…and you think this about that…and how dare you not…etc.”
–
Maybe I’m lucky, but I haven’t experienced this attitude since high school, back in the eighties, when tribing up was a a strategy for survival, not just recreation.
For me, the crazy thing about this discussion is that I am sympathetic to a lot of what Matt is saying. There are things to gamer culture that drive me completely goddamn nuts. I hate smelly gamers. I HATE them. I don’t really like Jonathan Coulton, either. And sweet Jesus did I get tired of being nagged to buy the Firefly boxed set.
And yet, gamer culture has been good to me. I’ve got friends from it, good times, lots of laughs. It’s a net positive. Net way positive.
It seems like I fish from gamer culture, taking the stuff I want and throwing the rest back. But it appears that Matt is more of a swimmer than a fisherman.
1. Gary Gygax is the acknowledged co-creator of a pastime which has entertained millions, myself included.
2. His work, during this life, was a positive influence; it was good work.
3. The man has passed away.
4. Therefore, many people (myself included) mourn his passing and acknowledge his influence in our lives one way or another.
There. I have stated these facts as plainly as anyone can and still look like they thought about it before they typed it. Further attempts at reading subtext into other people’s comments about the man’s death can, hereby, be declared academic at best and masturbatory at worst.
In general, though, it’s just kind of rude. Petty, even.
Oh. By the way — is it “nerd shame” if you don’t give a crap what anyone thinks of your hobbies, or for whom you grieve?
‘Cause I don’t, Mr Snyder.
Rotwang —
I find it totally understandable that I’ve offended you. I do. I also find it totally bizarre that you “don’t give a crap” so much that you bothered to post your anger at me.
You’re welcome to post here, as I’ve indicated to others above. Welcome.
-Matt
Hi Matt!
I must say that I am impressed by your post, in the middle of the big gamer-culture group hug for Gary’s death. Really, this showed guts, and balls (maybe not so much wisdom,: do you really need more enemies? I don’t, and it’s for this reason that I didn’t post something like that, I suppose…).
The problem is that this sub-culture don’t accept dissenting views. “You play”=”you are a gamer”=”you must think like us”. Really, what a lot of rubbish.
For what it’s worth: I love rpgs, but I don’t consider myself “a gamer”, I began to play in my twenties, with people already married with childs, with good jobs and no adolescent hang-ups (not so many, at least). My players are co-workers, friends, spouse of friends, etc, not people who answer ads in gaming stores. But when I talk to people about my hobbies and get to talk about role-playing, I always have to fight against the desperate impression left by the few minutes shown on TV of “these crazy gamers”.
I love rpgs, but this crazy “gamers culture” could die tomorrow, and I would be happy to dance on its grave. Without it I could play a lot more with a lot more people.
But I fear that, saying these things now, you are only giving that subculture only another “enemy” to rally against. (after all, it’s already defined by being “us players against the rest of the world”…)
Someone always has to try to stand out by pissing on other people’s memories. Enjoy the two seconds of fame you got by “keepin’ it real!”
Jackass.
Very interesting OP, as are everyone’s replies.
I have to admit, my initial reaction to the OP was, ‘Wow!’ It wasn’t what I expected to read. Actually, I hadn’t expected you to say much, if anything at all, about Gygax. It surprised me that you did and what the content of that message tried to convey.
Most points I’d make have all ready been addressed by you and I believe I have a clear understanding of your position. I won’t go down the rehash road. Instead I’d just share a story.
Once upon a time a friend invited me to a D&D session. I’ve never liked D&D, I find it tedious. Nevertheless, I went because I wanted to hang with my pal and maybe meet some cool new folks. As it happened, I did meet someone cool. These days, I call him my husband. Now, old Gary didn’t chip in for the wedding, nor did he give sage advice about what to do when times got rough. He wasn’t directly involved in our life. What he did was create a hobby that allowed a group of (mostly) strangers to get to get together in a social atmosphere that was fun. I would not have hooked up with Flash at a bar, a gardening event, a sports club, or a theatre show. I met and got to know him directly through the hobby of role-play. Therefore, I am grateful there was such a hobby. As such, I’m glad someone (Gygax) put pen to paper and made the damn thing up.
Certainly if there had not been D&D I would have eventually met someone else, had different friends, and so on. As you say, I would have been doing something. But I’m glad it didn’t turn out that way. Role-playing didn’t save my life, it didn’t grant me happily ever after, it didn’t even make me a better person. What it did was provide a social arena where I could learn how to do those things for myself. I have life long friends because there was an activity where like minded people could hang out and do our thing. I certainly feel no shame or guilt for the relationships I currently enjoy. As I say, I’m glad that a guy from Wisconsin crafted the hobby.
I don’t think I’m a lifestyle gamer. Other than reading the occasional link to somewhere or another, this is the only gaming blog I follow. I simply don’t have time to follow it all. Even so, I enjoy the hobby to this day. I recognize the hobby has been one avenue through which I’ve meet some pretty cool Joes. Is it wrong for me to remove my +5 helm of brilliance for a moment of silence to mark the passing of the hobby’s creator? I don’t think so.
6/10
The OP’s troll was effective in attracting flames, but lacked subtly. On content alone, discounting the response, it’s maybe a 4/10.
On a completely selfish note, I find that the more people live the gaming lifestyle, the more products they buy. As someone who works in the industry, that’s not something I can see as being BAD.
That said, this is a good point you probably shouldn’t have conflated with Senor Gygax, because the two issues aren’t actually that related. Gygax’s contributions to popular culture can shape a person’s life without them necessarily being lifestylers.
Heh, sure, when you come down to it, Gygax was just a guy from Wisconsin. And yeah, he designed a game. From the outside, and even some on the inside, most would say, woopdeedoo.
But as much as one would not want to give someone more credit than they are due, I think Gygax is deserving of most of the attention he has received in his death. He really did help define and mold the role-playing game hobby and industry.
Saying Gygax was just a guy who designed a game is like saying Wayne Gretzky was just a hockey player. That Muhammad Ali was just a boxer. Babe Ruth just a baseball player. Albert Einstein was just a patent office clerk.
Yes, they were those things, but they helped define the things they are famous for. Gretzky will receive many accolades when he dies. So will Muhammad Ali. Babe Ruth did, as did Einstein. Many people have credited Gretzky for their interest in hockey. Many have credited Ali for their career in boxing. These people were larger than life, and indirectly responsible for the start of many careers.
Gary Gygax was larger than life, D&D is where many people got their start in role-playing, and sharing a common interest helps people form life-long friendships. His death made people look back on their gaming “lifestyle”, ponder the immense wealth of fun they have had, and honestly, if they want to say Gygax was responsible for it… why the hell not?
Life’s full of people who will say, “I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for “. There’s nothing wrong with it, is there?
May all of your stools be as hard as rock, and larger than your ass.
The end.
Who cares about the guy here with a blog? Not me. Obviously, lots of other people care. Good for them.
Matt, I’d rather be a self-identified nerd than a closeted one. Indie RPGs is a cultural category so marginal your hobby practically belongs to another species than the human race. I think you should be ashamed for a shocking lack of gratitude. No, Gygax did not personally hand you happiness on a plate. But you do what you do partly because of his efforts. You may define gaming as an “activity” and identify others as having a “lifestyle,” but I don’t have “activities” I don’t consider meaningful at some level. You say you are not ashamed…. I would not count that as a virtue. You should be ashamed.
Just another self-agrandizing nihillist who believes that because he does something different from the majority, he is somehow special and better. The problem with self-agrandizing nihillists is that they are blissfully unaware of just how annoying and immature most other people find it to take the opposing stance just for the sake of being in the minority.
Matt, you do understand the irony in claiming that us geeks wallowing in nerd shame are making a game our lifestyle when for most of us its a hobby, but for you its a job? I play RPG’s once in a while as the oppurtunity comes up. You apparently work for a company that publishes RPG’s (I’d like to point out RPG’s that the greater majority of the world isn’t even aware exists, where as most people here Dungeons & Dragons and know exactly what you’re talking about). If I lose out on RPG time I move on. If you lose out, your bills don’t et paid. So who’s lifestyle is really effected by an activity?
So just because you feel special and different because you don’t mourn for someone, you think you have the right to sit there and basically mock the emotions of other people? Realy what it comes down to is that you, and your company, are upset because Gygax made a game the world will remember for years to come, where you make games that the world couldn’t care less about.
And if you disagree with my statement that the world knows about D&D, do a search at MSN, or yahoo, or google, for Gygax’s death and see how many actually news publications have reported on it. I would bet every dollar I own that if you or Joe Nobody who owns this company you work for dies, the best you could hope for is some two-bit obituary in a local newspaper.
If Milton Bradley was responsible for the cultural paradigm of “corporate business,” then yeah, you’d be right.
But they didn’t. However, Gygax *was* part of the group that founded roleplaying games. Ergo, in my dissenting opinion, we do owe him our thanks for the careers we enjoy.
Simply, if Gary hadn’t done what he’d done, I wouldn’t get paid for the enjoyable task of writing roleplaying games. So yeah, thanks, Gygax. Thanks.
//H
Toran, welcome to the Heads or Tales blog.
You are welcome to dissent with my writings here. I do ask that you do so with factually supportable claims about me. Specifically, I do not claim to publish role-playing games as my job. I am fully employed in an unrelated field. Creating my role-playing games is something I do for fun. I do receive payment for my games. The amount of total profit is relatively small (a couple thousand dollars, basically). I do not work for any company that publishes role-playing games; I am the sole creator of my work, with the exception of artwork and illustrations in my books. My role-playing game publication barely covers, say, purchases of leisure reading. It does not pay even one cent toward any of my bills.
Ironically, you are just a guy who created a game. Gary Gygax created the medium. You’ll never measure up.
James, you are exactly correct. I am indeed just a guy who created a game. It is all I have ever set out to do in this hobby. I deliberately seek out to view anyone who participates in this hobby as a peer, an equal, a comrade, whether they are a creator or “just” a player. I think you’ll find your insult is, to me, a compliment.
Wow! I have never read such a thing in my life. You don’t care if the guy died. OK. But you care about other people’s reaction to his death enough to blog about it.
If you cared this little about the matter, why did you write a blog post? Your so busy, I’d think you would have better things to do.
You speak of this impenetrable “subculture”, Mr. Snyder. I have yet to be a part of it, and I’m a regular player. RPGs are what you make of them - if that happens to be a lifestyle, great, it’s possible to make it a career. If it’s an excuse to hang out and argue over minutiae, perfect, who’s buying the pizza?
RPGs and D&D in particular do not require as humongous an investment as you assume. My players would be unlikely to talk about D&D away from our soon-to-be-every-other-Friday games. In fact, it has no impact on their lives whatsoever, except as a fun little diversion every other Friday. I have difficulty believing that we are the only ones who share this mentality.
The majority of players take it as a hobby, not a lifestyle. It is not limited to an elite “subculture.”
For some people it is not prescriptive, but descriptive, even if it appears the other way around.
I was introduced to Fantasy and Sci Fi books towards the end of second grade. I like playing console games, computer games, I read comics, I play RPGs, I design RPGs, I watch anime and read manga.
I don’t do these things because they’re part of what the tag “Gamer” or more precisely in my case, “Geek” means. I apply the tag to myself because it fits, because I do all those things that fall under it.
And no, it is not prescriptive, there are also many geek activities I don’t find enjoyable.
Hey Matt,
If you “deliberately seek out to view anyone who participates in this hobby as a peer, an equal, a comrade”, doesn’t that make you a member of the subculture that you’re railing against? You know, the very one you don’t self-identify with…
Pax,
- Cuindless
Y’know, becasue of D&D, I met a guy that became my husband.
See, he’s a gamer. He found a DM that was a scuzzy bastard, but he was a willing DM. So they hung out. The DM knew me, and introduced me to the gamer. We got married 11 years ago. We’d never have met otherwise.
So E. Gary Gygax is the reason I met my husband. And I thank him for that.
Wow remind me not to buy any of your games….I guess Mr Gygax has nothing to do with the business you make a living in now. I hate you guys, too cool you know the kind. Sorry that any of us felt for the guy….he was a major influence even if it was til only 89, that’s a solid 15 years, how long has your game been popular?
I think you also missed the point, it’s like some people equate it to losing their childhood. And D n D wasn’t my whole life either, I was a three sport athlete too. People like you are just pretentious, you don’t even realize that Gygax helped create the genre that you make a living in…LOL.
-HOMOPHOBIC LINE DELETED BY BLOG HOST-
Heh, look at your picture. You are indeed a geek. Stopping hating yourself vicariously by hating other geeks. Be proud of your geekness ! Embrace your inner geek!
Keith, dissent is welcome here. Pejorative epithets about homosexuality are NOT welcome here. I doubt you’ll bother to post again, but I will delete disgusting comments like your sign off. Please don’t do it again.
PS Isn’t your Dust Devils merely a rip-off of Boot Hill?
Matt,
A lot of points have been covered thus far. I’m not totally unsympathetic to you; I got fairly royally reamed elsewhere for saying that I wasn’t particularly sad for Gary. (The way I see it, the man had a full life, managed to find relative fame and fortune doing something he loved to do, and made a lot of people happy, which is about the best any of us can possibly hope for in life.)
That being said, I have to side with those who say that you didn’t communicate your point well, and that the bone of contention here isn’t that you’re not sad over Gary’s death, but that you seem to think you’re a better judge of others than they are themselves.
Take, f’rinstance, the two folks whose reactions you posted. It doesn’t strike you as being the least bit arrogant to listen to someone talk about their life experiences, and then say (in essence) “Nope. You’re wrong. You might have thought that D&D kept you from committing suicide, but it didn’t”?
Bluntly: how would you know? Regardless of how well you do or don’t know the folks in question, you aren’t the one who’s been walking around in their shoes for however many years. You say they’re “not giving themselves enough credit,” but ironically, you’re not giving them very much credit at all–at least when it comes to being able to accurately evaluate their own actions, motivations, and emotional states.
The same point applies in general when you move from attempting remote psychoanalysis on individuals to remote psychoanalysis of groups. You’re making some fairly sweeping value judgements, and those are bound to irritate people a bit. When it comes right down to it, if you say, “I wish people didn’t make a lifestyle out of D&D,” then no matter how you sugarcoat or qualify that, what you’re saying to anyone who does is “I have judged your lifestyle and find it lacking.”
Don’t expect them to applaud you for that, no matter how many times you say “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”
You say that no offense was intended; I certainly believe you. You also say that in your opinion, none was transmitted; on that point, you’re simply mistaken. Clearly, offense was transmitted, whether you intended for it to be or not. To tell someone else who is offended that “No offense was transmitted” is, again, to imply that they don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to their own emotions and motivations.
Doing that will get you raked over the coals every time.
Ben, thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts. You raise good ones.
As I have already said, even if my message is poorly written, it remains unchanged so that the comments here remain in context.
I knew full well that posting this would anger many people. I am not suprised, and not particularly hurt by this. I find that discussion works better than silence. That’s precisely why I bothered to post at all.
I’m a bit sympathetic to concerns that I didn’t wait long enough for people to get over Gary’s passing. Obviously, I still did it, and I can’t take it back. Spilt milk, as far as it goes.
However, I point directly to the the level of anger and vitriol here that all is not right in the happy hobby. There is such strong anger here; it’s precisely that kind of circle-the-wagons to defend one’s identity that I find unpleasant in the hobby.
I disagree. I think you’re reading into what’s here and seeing what you expect to see.
On a cold read, with no preconceptions about you or those responding to you, I see very little vitriol of that sort. A few responses here and there, yes, but in general, the flak you’re receiving seems to be largely independent of subject.
I suspect that, had you made a similar post about Brett Favre’s retirement, and how you couldn’t bring yourself to be sad about it (with obligatory lament about those who make football a lifestyle rather than simply an activity,) you would have gotten similar responses. Heck, you probably would’ve gotten a lot more vitriol…there are a lot more football fans, and some of them are pretty damned passionate about their hobby.
Ultimately, though, if we take you at your word and accept that you don’t give a damn about Gary’s passing…which is, I think, honest…then we have to look elsewhere for your reasons for writing this entry in the first place. It’s not logical, after all, to say “I don’t care about this; therefore, I will write about it at some length.”
The apparent motive that remains…and note that I said “apparent”…is to lecture others on facets of their behavior of which you disapprove.
That tends to rub people the wrong way, regardless of how much of the lecture is or is not valid. I, for one, never lived or gamed in my parents’ basement (basements in houses built in the 1800’s tend to be kinda scary.) That doesn’t mean I’d respond particularly favorably to someone marching up to me and saying “Hurr hurr hurr, you play D&D, get out of your parents basement loser!”
I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing here, but it illustrates the principle: it’s possible to be irritated by someone’s criticisms regardless of whether those criticisms are valid or not. If it wasn’t, a whole lot of drunken bar-fights over what was said about somebody’s mother would never happen.
I really don’t think that the responses you’re getting here indicate a problem with the hobby as much as they indicate a problem with the tone of the post.
Ben, thanks again for being reasonable and discussing.
If the problem people have with the post is my tone, and not the content of my post, I’ll be delighted. Hopefully, when tempers cool, some people can mull it over, and consider whether I’m just a crack pot or whether I may actually have good, solid reasons for my iconoclastic views about gaming. (I can assure you, they are not about gathering more attention to myself.)
I have already spoken why my tone in the post will not change (to restate: because I deserve to get raked over the coals if I fucked up, and people do not deserve to have their reactions removed from context and made to look silly as I improve my writing). I get it. I’m seen as too mean by some, or many. I’ve already defended myself as much as I’m going to. Others can dismiss me, get angry with me, talk with me, and criticize me. All of those are consequences I earnestly accept.
I don’t think the question is “Are you going to change what you’ve written?” I don’t see anyone here really calling for you to do so, and I think your reasons for letting it stand are good and valid ones.
It seems to me that the question is more “Where will you go from here?” Geek culture doesn’t work for you, which is fine. It works quite well for some others, which is also fine.
I find myself somewhere in the middle on that equation; I took my wife to GenCon last year, and we had a good time. I don’t have a lot of time for game design these days, but I try to occasionally submit an article or do a little freelancing to keep my hand in. Heck, I was actually fortunate enough to have some fairly lengthy discussions with Mr. Gygax, both online and in person…though those discussions mostly centered around cooking and never really got around to the subject of gaming.
At the same time, I really wish the guy in the Jedi robes (the one who also wears them outside of conventions) would stop trying to corner me and tell me about his buxom redheaded Japanese ninja character.
But I digress.
I do have to say that I think your desire for a less insular, more mainstream RPG hobby is a Quixotic one. There’s a reason tabletop roleplaying games acquired the stigma and stereotypes they have; it takes a certain personality type to enjoy such games. There has to be at least a streak of obsessiveness to find a game that involves committing hours simply to learning the rules fun. There has to be a certain element of escapism to enjoy playing what amounts to “Let’s Pretend” as adults.
In my opinion, we’ve seen what a less-insular, more mainstream version of the tabletop RPG looks like…and millions of players are online playing it right now.
(As for being civil, you’re quite welcome; I try to always remain so. I think the Internet would be a considerably nicer place if people simply remembered to treat each other like human beings, even when we disagree.)
Matt, I read this with a rather large amount of confusion. What exactly is the point of writing a blog about how you don’t care that a man died?
Dude,
You’re like the Joe Grant of D&D Blogs.
Not enough people paying attention to you? Woke up feeling mad at the world?
Im sure you will have something witty to say using big words to defend yourself, but in the end, you are just another asshole.
I think it’s rather amusing that a hobby that actually has influenced popular media to the point where it’s become a defined definition in popular society has you feeling the urge to point out that it’s not important. Never mind the movies, television and multi-billion dollar industry that has sprung up from this sub-culture.
Sounds a lot like the after taste of sour grapes nestled securely in your pallet and that of your brother. Your contribution to the world thus far has been a blog… At least when Gygax died he managed to stir some interest and his name will be mentioned by people he never met. For someone to have created a way for people to have a common means of expression without having to point out fault in others is a fairly good legacy. His was a creative endeavor while yours seems to have defined you by the scorn you would distribute.
Which is more commendable?
I came here from the Pundit’s Blog with what I thought was an out-of-context quote and I thought “Man, that’s not what’d I’d expect from Matt. Maybe not being carried away with grief over EGG’s death but pissing all over people who did care? He’s not *tacky*.”
Alas.
I was sad when Kurt Vonengut died. I was sad when Robert Anton Wilson died. Same for Gary. The world’s no richer for his passing. Here is a great article from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/opinion/09rogers.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
-Marco
Maybe you didn’t intend this reaction to your blog but it kinda came across thusly: You showed up at the communal e-funeral of Gary Gygax and had antagonistic remarks to contribute. Yes, its your blog and you can post what you like but bottom line is that it seemed like you decided to take a dump at a funeral and people responded/reacted accordingly.
““I read his obit you sent me. Gary said he enjoyed the social nature of the hobby. Oh yes! You mean the social nature of … playing in Mom & Dad’s basement?!””
Huh? Hanging out with people *is* social, whether you are in a basement or at the mall with the cool kids.
“This existential grief notion that “OMIGOD, Where would I be without Gary?!?” is baffling to me. You’d be doing something else, I guess. But, who cares? You didn’t do something else. You aren’t doing something else. You’re playing role-playing games. And that’s cool”
Right. It is cool. I’ve enjoyed myself. Looking back, I have had oodles of good times because of this game. What? The guy who was partly responsible for this game’s creation has passed away? That is sad. He has enriched my life. Cheers to you Gary. What is so baffling about that?
In truth, I cannot overly criticize you for this blogpost without being hypocritical. In 1990something my little brother was incredibly saddened by Cobain’s suicide and I didn’t get it. I kinda mocked my little brother for caring in the same tone and manner as this blogpost. I mean, he was just some musician, you didn’t know him, he didn’t know you. What do you care? Well, Nirvana’s music touched my brother in a way it did not touch me. So while I was certainly within my rights to not mourn Kurt Cobain’s passing, it was quite dickish of me to question his. My currency went down quite a bit with my brother that day and its not until reading your blogpost that I realized how lousy I made him feel.
Hello, moonpie. What is your name? I’m Matt. Hi!
You said you are confused. To clarify, part of my blog post is about how I’m personally unaffected (that is, not upset) that a “figure” of the RPG hobby died. I am sad that a human being named Gary Gygax died and left behind a family and friends.
Additionally, my post is also about my belief that the culture of the RPG hobby puts too much emphasis on celebrity. As members of the hobby, we don’t put enough emphasis on our own personal contributions and self-worth as people.
Hopefully, that clarifies it for you. You can also read additional comments about for more clarification.
Marco, I’m sorry to hear you think I’m tacky and pissing on Gygax’s grave. That is not the case, though I cannot convince anyone otherwise. I have stated within that blog post that the actual death of a real life human being makes me sad.
But, more importantly, I’m not interested in answering to you. You came to read this through the lens of a spiteful crank who has numerous times called me an “asshole” and worse names. You’ll have to forgive me for not caring that you bothered to post here only after your routine of reading such a hateful jerk.
Way I see it, it boils down to this:
If you aren’t saddened by Gary’s death, thats not a big deal. Hell, I was never that affected by the trade towers getting destroyed. My first reaction was “Well, at least they didn’t blow up anything important, like the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building”. So hundreds of people died, big deal, people die every day.
The thing here though is that your blog entry has nothing to do with expressing the point that you don’t care. It goes full on the other direction, and directly attacks anyone that does care. It doesn’t matter if someone is a gamer or not, its natural to go on the defensive when someone is attacking like that. And the fact that you are using the death of someone that was respected by a lot of people as an excuse to attack the mourners is just in really bad taste.
Ronald Regan never did anything to directly influence my life either, but I was still saddened when he died, because of the great things he had done, and how the world was a better place for him having been here.
If you can’t understand that, or don’t share those feelings, thats fine. But to outright attack everyone that does, claiming they all have “nerd shame” and are clinging to the man so they don’t feel alone is just inappropriate. You don’t know anything about their lives, so your comments come across as just another layer of “fat stinky guy in his parent’s basement at age 35″ rant. To be ignored as ignorant at best, and held up as an example of what is wrong with the world at worst.
Hello Edymnion. Matt here. What’s your name, if you care to share? I prefer addressing people by their names.
I respectfully disagree that I was outright attacking, as you say. I understand why people are reacting negatively to those words. I do. I ask that you reconsider what those phrases and those setences actually say. Specifically, they use strong words to call attention to a clear stance I’m taking, which is: “gamers” deserve far more credit for NOT being “nerd shamed.” The deserve that credit because they are NOT ashamed, despite much stereotyping. They deserve more credit as human beings than they give themselves or than the general public gives them.
In essence, people here are really angry with me because they are not understanding the “nerd shame” sentence at all.
Other replies above disagree with me on this, and say that I’m communicating poorly with bad writing. That’s fine. I’ve already spoken on that as well. I disagree, but I do understand their point.
Matt, I think you really should reconsider your ideas about “the culture of the RPG hobby”. There isn’t a homogeneous RPG hobby with a specific culture. There are a lot more people playing RPG and RPG type games than I think you realize…
Stuart, you posted several times. You’re convinced I’m wrong and wrong-headed. I hear and recognize you. I do not agree with you about several points. I do agree with you that the gaming subculture is not homogenous and monolithic. However, I believe its members do have shared traits sufficiently applicable for my concerns.
You clearly have things to say. I urge you to say and share them. Replies to my comments aren’t working especially well for that. Perhaps a post on Story Games?
The Pundit’ blog is on my RSS list next to Anyway. Maybe in the future when RSS feeds become artificially intelligent, they’ll fight it out.
-Marco
If you like, although these are replies to your blog posts… so this is as good a place for a discussion as any.
I’ve cross posted this to Story Games and the theRPGsite.
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9396
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5999
Marco, maybe in the future when RSS feeds become artifically INTELLIGENT they’ll recognize the Pundit for the socially abusive, irrational bully that he is and stop “feeding” him.
Let me pose this question to you, Matt:
Do you think roleplaying games would have reached the level of cultural impact they have reached without the “subculture” element?
I’m not at all convinced that they would have; I’m mindful of the fact that the whole “D&D is Satanic/dangerous, don’t let your kids play it!” uproar of the early-to-mid 80’s was probably the single largest boon to the growth of the industry. For a brief period, roleplaying games were edgy, controversial–in short, cool. Those who played them were doing something with just a hint of the allure of the forbidden, which contributed to the clannish and insular nature of the gaming community. It’s very easy to feel like it’s you against the world when the world (or at least a small but shrill part of it) is shouting for your hobby to be outlawed.
Eh… reading between the lines- and I mean REALLY reading in between the lines- you did actually have a good solid article there. I equally hate the steryoteype of the nerdy fat DnD player who becomes obsessed with the game, makes it a lifestyle, and then goes crazy if he ‘loses’ (thank you very much Jack Chick). That said, people have met spouses, gotten jobs, and had many other wonderful things happen to them all because they met someone special at the DnD table. All I’m saying is, they have the right to thank Gary Gygax for helping them get where they are today. But I’m not going to get annoyed with your article when there are people writing stuff like this: http://www.slate.com/id/2186203/nav/ais/
I’m going to try to avoid rambling here, as I’ve got a lot of thoughts on your original post rattling around in my brain. I’ll try to keep it coherent (no guarantees).
First off, I’d have to agree with those that point out that if you didn’t mean to be condescending and inflammatory, you did a poor job of representing your intent. Pointing out how you and your brother shared a joke over the man’s obituary, and mocking the idea that D&D is a social activity, came across very badly. From what I gathered from your post, you want RPGs to go beyond the insular, esoteric sub-cultural lifestyle. It seems to me that those that are claiming it as a social hobby are trying to make it more than a life-crutch for social misfits. Belittling that is counter to your argument. Belittling the obituary of the man who invented the game is shoddy and callous.
You also came across as broad-brushing any who expressed sentiment over Gary’s passing as “Clinging to Gary so you, the self-conscious gamer, can avoid feeling alone and awkward in your nerd shame…” That’s making an awfully large assumption about the source of people’s emotions. Frankly, when Gary passed I reflected on how he changed my life. I realized I’d be pretty much in exactly the same situation in life (which I’m happy with), and would have almost the same friends. But the fact still is that the man invented a game that I’ve enjoyed playing more than any other, and has brought a lot of wonderful shared experiences to me. For that, I was very thankful, and I was expressing that. I was two when John Lennon died, and I still feel anger and sadness when I think about his passing. I love his music, but it hasn’t really changed my life. Does that invalidate the way I feel about him? No, it doesn’t.
Further, you seem to resent the idea that the gamer sub-culture would tell you how to feel, but you come across as trying very hard to convince people that what they are thinking is wrong, in some way. I mean, isn’t that the crux of your crusade? To convince people to stop viewing gaming as a lifestyle rather than an activity? Speaking as someone who has cried that very thing to his friends who take the *game* far to seriously (at times), I can appreciate that point. But linking that point to Gary’s death, and within days of his passing, was in poor taste.
You defend your right to state your opinion in your own blog, and that’s certainly correct. However, to me, it would have been in better taste to at least wait some time before doing so, or to separate your point about gamer culture from Gary’s death. He meant something to many people, and it really isn’t your place to question that. By linking your views on a *game* to the death of a *person*, you are loading the issue with more importance than it deserves — which is ironic considering what your point seems to be. You stated that you knew the reaction your post would generate, and you still chose to do so to make your point. If you agree that RPGs are just games, then does it not seem irresponsible to take issue with people’s feelings over Gary to point that out? Would you not be upset if someone used the death of someone you knew as an opportunity to say that people get too worked up when playing Monopoly?
I’ve never claimed that Gary Gygax saved my life. But if some do feel that way, do they really need you to point out that he didn’t, that they were responsible for it themselves? Maybe they already know what they did for themselves. Maybe they can be thankful to the man that provided a catalyst for their self-improvement. That doesn’t mean they ”formed a lifestyle around it.” Your post seemed incredibly presumptive to me, and that is where a lot of people are seeing condescension and judgement. You didn’t mean it to come across that way, and that’s fine. But it did to a lot of people and they are reacting accordingly. That’s the thing about opinions, I guess.
Ultimately, as far as I can tell you used the death of Gary Gygax as an opportunity to state your opinion on a game. In *my* opinion that was in poor taste. You seem to disagree, or at least feel that people are reading your post incorrectly. Whether they are or not, you chose to represent yourself in a public medium in a particular fashion. You say you are ok with that, and that’s great. I personally feel you are going a long way to make a point that doesn’t need to be made, or at the least isn’t as important as you think it is. In the long run, this flurry of reaction to your post will blow over and be forgotten. Gary’s contribution, whether it was just to the clinging nerd sub-culture or to mainstream culture, won’t be forgotten. And *that* is why so many people are expressing their sadness over his passing.
If that is still baffling to you, then fine. It makes perfect sense to me.
I gotta say it amuses me greatly how you write that there’s a nasty groupthink out there among gamers, and it sucks … and then a bunch of gamers come around and bash you for not being in on the groupthink.
I mean, it’s sort of predictable that would happen, but really, the proof of what you wrote is right here in the comments left by angry gamers.
say he only invented a game is a bit disrespectful. I used to play D&D when I was younger and after a few years away from it have slowly been getting back into it during my spare time and i’ll admit I agree with you to a point, and if this was about some production line pop star or latest untalented movie star I would understand. sure gary gygax only invented a game but if it wasn’t for that game how many of us would have grown up without such rich imaginations or become involved with gangs, drugs, crime and violence as they grew up
(and where I live a lot of people of my generation outside of my gaming group did go down that path).
sure he only made a game but without that game we (who play/played D&D) would not have the friends we have to day, we would not have made the choices we made and we would not be who we are today just as the latest sports star would not be where he/she is to day had he/she not decided to try his/her hand at that sport all those years ago.
so sure it’s just a game and sure it’s not the be all and end all of who we are today but it did infulance our decisions over the years and it did help mold us as we grew, just as if I hadn’t agreed to accompany a friend to a karate class years ago I wouldn’t be teaching kids how to protect themselves today. sure joining that class didn’t make me everything i am today but it did help mold me into the person I am today. so yeah gary gygax only made a game but that game has shaped many people, infulancing them in many ways and created great friendships. so sure it’s only a game just as chess is only a game, just as scrabble is only a game but even today those games are helping people form new friendships all over the world, they’re helping people get through rainy days so sure D&D is just a game but it’s also much more, it’s the social group of your friends around the table, it’s the wounderful imaginitive world formed in our minds as we play each adventure and it’s the sadness and jokes we all share togeather in our small groups and massive world wide comunity.
so sure it’s just a game but that does not mean games are unimportant
***sort if that was a bit of a ramble but I think I covered everything***
Hello, Kiva. Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate what you said, and basically agree with you about groupthink. It’s one of the reasons I posted. That is, I can either stay quiet and just walk away from the scene, or I can speak up and critcize, knowing full well critical comments won’t be welcome. I’m ok with that, because it’s clear to me I’ve caused many people to think about the issue. That was my primary goal. I think from that thought may come changes, however small. Good.
I dunno, man. All this post has really done is convince me to start ignoring you and your contributions while you’re still alive.
Fred, I really don’t care what you think of me. Feel free to start ignoring any time. You have made it very clear to me that your goals for this hobby are very different, and even conflicting, with mine. This offends you somehow, despite your own direct claims that it doesn’t. I’ll get over it. So will you.
This isn’t about priorities for the hobby. It’s about showing respect — for the dead, and for the living. I don’t think you behave like someone who has nearly half the respect he claims to for other people.
I’m trying to respect folks and how they feel about dead people. I do this for Christians and that dead guy Jesus Christ all the time, despite not sharing that faith nor a sense of the significance of that particular dead guy.
But you won’t see me blogging telling people to get over it.
That’s what assholes do.
I’m definitely not trying to pull you into the ragefest that’s surrounding the story I just wrote for Slate (it was linked to in comment 73, above) criticizing Gygax, and feel free to dump this post before the Wild Hunt follows me here, but I’m feeling the wrath of some serious groupthink. I’m also not assuming that our opinion of Gygax really overlaps, but it’s interesting how violent the response has been.
One guy wrote: Your attack on Gary Gygax, following the news of his death, places you in the same sewage pot as folks protesting the war at the funerals of fallen veteran.
And someone else: What a great article. When a man dies who started a legend you tear him a new one. You must have nothing better to do with your life, I am sure your folks are proud.
It’s like I personally spit on the grave of their closest relative, who also happened to be a hero and world-famous philanthropist. It’s ridiculous, and kind of hilarious, and really horrifying, and I’m doing everything I can to avoid jumping in there and really capitalizing on the weirdly savage stupidity that’s revealing itself. If this is the face of D&D, and the industry in general, what a fine mug it is.
Groupthink? Really? I’m not seeing it. I’m seeing a fairly wide range of reactions. Some folks think you were being a jerk; some think you had a valid point, but expressed it badly. About the only common factor is that most of the viewpoints here seem to agree that the way the argument was presented wasn’t particularly helpful.
In general, I find that when the large majority of people are telling me that I’m expressing myself badly, it’s healthier to acknowledge that I may well be expressing myself badly, rather than assume that the fault lies with others and with groupthink.
Matt, I am saddened by what appears to be a “so what?” attitude in your replies. By this, I mean you state you welcome disagreements and discussion and so forth, but then consistently “shrug” off any discussion of those disagreements as “well, whatever” or “too bad for you”, while projecting your own arguments about groupthink, the “real” reason people are upset, and so forth rather than looking at the points people are making over-and-over which having nothing to do with what you appear to want to see.
I would think at this point you would do what I’d expect of a guy of your class and just own up to the bad phrasing, “I was unclear. I didn’t intend to make that argument, and should have chosen my words more carefully.” Or “What I meant to say was this, and clearly that did not come across as intended.”
It isn’t a hard thing to do and it would not distract in any way from what you state are your actual points about gamer culture and self-esteem, while taking responsibility and apologizing for the accidental broad brush and psychoanalysis of all mourners as disturbed and closeted smelly-geeks that folks do find offensive.
Is there any particular reason you aren’t doing so?
You disgust me, you have no respect for one of the men who founded the industry you work in, indie or not.
“I gotta say it amuses me greatly how you write that there’s a nasty groupthink out there among gamers, and it sucks … and then a bunch of gamers come around and bash you for not being in on the groupthink.
I mean, it’s sort of predictable that would happen, but really, the proof of what you wrote is right here in the comments left by angry gamers.”
-Kiva Oraibi
Actually is seems like he’s trying to setup an unchallengeable argument by equating disagreement with his opinion as evidence in support of his theory. It’s an exceptionally convenient tactic when you are trying to support a weak position.
Questions are best when raised. Matt, you know I love and respect you even though I probably represent everything you’ve repudiated. I think it’s important to stir the pot and question assumptions, especially now when the matter is fresh in everyone’s mind. In a few months, next year or whatever, it won’t matter nearly as much. Questioning is good for the culture, is good for dismantling it and good for building it. We all win.
I am going to cross post my own words from the Dice Quixote thread because I believe it’s relevant to say it here, too. This is part of a larger discussion over there, but it addresses a lot of stuff I’m seeing in this thread as well. Hope it’s helpful, and doesn’t just muddy waters. I’m talking a bit about the larger scope of Gary’s work and my personal take on the general reaction to his untimely passing. I am using a conversational tone of voice, not an accusatory one.
Cuindless wrote:
“What I won’t endorse is bashing people who 1) feel that D&D and other RPGs had a positive effect on their life, 2) feel they owe the creator of them a debt of gratitude, and 3) are probably mourning his loss. What I won’t endorse is an attempt to eradicate a subculture I identify with.”
Point 1: Agreed. But remember to give yourself a little credit along the way. D&D didn’t make you a cool, thoughtful person. *You* did that.
Point 2: This may sound cold, and I really don’t mean for it to. I just don’t know how to phrase this a different way, so I’m gonna just say it and hope you read charitably.
I owe Mr. Gygax, Mr. Findley, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Norwood, Mr. Snyder, or Mr. Joe Game Designer nothing more than the purchase price for the games I choose to buy. Let us not forget a key point: Gary was looking to make a living. He had 6 (six!) kids to feed. Probably had a house payment, a car payment, and all of the same bills you and I have. It is commendable that he was able to devise a way to make money at something he loved.
In fact, I find that he did so *far more admirable* than the product he created, marketed, and sold.
But he purposefully and consciously set out to make a living selling a product. He did not create D&D to be free. This was not pro-bono work designed to help keep at risk kids out of trouble. He did what he did because he loved it and it paid the bills. If it had not paid the bills, he would tried his hand at other things, I imagine. That people like/ admire his work is fine, but please, please, please do not sanctify the dead. He was not a hero, he was a business man. He had responsibilities. He did what he needed to in to support his family. He made a good living, and good for him. I am glad he chose to make his living the way he did. I’ve meet some really cool folks through the hobby. But a debt of gratitude? It just doesn’t play for me. I understand others may feel differently.
Point 3: I can not help but wonder how deep the wound really is. (Speaking in general terms here, not about anyone’s specific grief.) My reaction was the same as any time I hear about someone passing before the ripe old age of 90. ‘Man, that’s too bad. Death sucks.’
Maybe I’m a skeptic, but how many people play up the grief thing to ‘fit in’. How many people who have roasted Mr. Snyder Actually Gave A Fuck that Gygax was dead? How many members of his deeply grieved fan base decided to put their money where their mouth was and donate in Gary’s memory to his favorite charity? How many people would even know what his favorite charity was? How about giving to the Hospice that surely took care of him in his final days? Hospices are generally low on funding.
You see, it’s one thing for someone to say, ‘How dare you insult Gygax! I owe him a debt of gratitude. I’m grieving!’ It’s entirely another thing to honor his life and repay that perceived debt by actually doing something to give back in his memory. For the folks doing that or something similar, I might be inclined to agree that their grief is deep and genuine. I have a feeling, however, that many people who claim great grieving do not suffer from it. I’m not using a snarky tone, BTW. Nor am I telling anyone who to grieve for, or who not to grieve for.
Point 3.5: I do not condone ‘eradicating’ anyone.
Cuindless wrote:
“A) Barriers to the enjoyment of RPGs should be eliminated.
B) The gaming subculture is a barrier to the enjoyment of RPGs.
C) Therefore?”
No.
A. There is a measurable, pervasive, harmful, and negative social stigma attached to RPGs.
B. This stigma is a barrier to involving new people with the hobby
C. Therefore, within the hobby we should be encouraging healthy, non-insular, and positive play experiences which override existing negative social stereotyping. This sort of healthy and positive play should be accessible to anyone, current gamer or not.
Or something to that effect.
Thanks again for sharing your views, Cuindless.
Fred, I’m still not-reeling from your threat to ignore me. I hope you’re done venting. Let’s just say the loss of respect between us is mutual, and has been for some time now.
Ben, Chris, thanks for your thoughts. I disagree, which won’t surprise you. That’s ok. At the very least, I hope you’ve gotten something to think about.
Raven, of course there’s a reason I’m not doing so. I don’t agree!
You want me to change my mind. You’ve posted each time increasinly insisting I do so. I find this pretty baffling, not least of all because I don’t think that me saying anything at all at this point in time will change any pissed off person’s mind.
You’re not going to get what you want out of this. It’s why I appear to be “so what-ing” to you. I don’t owe you this. I see you getting frustrated that, somehow, I’m just being a wildly irrational fool who wont’ do what is right. And, if you don’t like that reaction, you don’t owe me respect. That’s how it works, I realize. As I’ve previously said, I accept those consequences.
You realize what I’m saying, right? That I am unhurt and indifferent to many gamers’ angry derision and dismissal of me. Not because I think they’re scum or losers or whatever. But, because I think there will be no healthy dialogue between us. As people, I think they’re great. I’m a little disappointed they’re so angry we can’t talk. As my man Bob Dylan says, “Most Likely You Go Your Way and I’ll Go Mine.”
Hello Esofge. Thank you for contributing here. I basically agree with your points and experiences that the anger is overwrought. I don’t know that it’s stupidity, but it certainly is a sensitive issue. I find it disheartening that in agreeing with you about “groupthink,” as previous replies here indicate, I’ve invited more anger and dismissal. But, I don’t find it very surprising either.
One of the issues I keep noticing is that people feel justified in their condemnation of me. I’m just an angry, incautiously writing crank who disrespects their hero. Yet, they do not acknowledge other people posting here who agree with me (for examples, Mick Bradley, Joe Prince, Lisa Fleishman, Moreno, possibly a couple others). Are those people also angry cranks who’ve insulted their heroes? I don’t think they are. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for those folks for speaking up in what is obviously a difficult topic.
Esofge wrote:
“I’m definitely not trying to pull you into the ragefest that’s surrounding the story I just wrote for Slate (it was linked to in comment 73, above) criticizing Gygax, and feel free to dump this post before the Wild Hunt follows me here, but I’m feeling the wrath of some serious groupthink. I’m also not assuming that our opinion of Gygax really overlaps, but it’s interesting how violent the response has been.”
Hi Erik,
Nevertheless, at the core of it I found some things I agreed with, and I certainly agree that you have been on the receiving end of group think that makes the most vicious posts here seem very mild in comparison. I was going to post a response to your article, but with 20+ pages of commentary, I didn’t much see the point.
As I said in another thread, your article is strongly worded, you didn’t toss a soft ball.
I do wish that your article had spurred thoughtful discussion in The Fray about the hobby, the negative stigmas it faces, and how to rememdy that within the hobby. Instead, most of the responses seemed to be of the, ‘U R teh sUx!’ variety. How many of those folks who claim great grieving, actually are? How many just decided to hop on the Erik Is An Asshole bandwagon? I suspect the later far outweighs the former.
Granted, I didn’t read every single post in The Fray, but did anyone even ask you why you think what you do or why you wrote what you wrote? Did they even try to understand the position before denouncing it?
Matt, I’m not sure where to begin. Well, here, I guess. You said:
“You want me to change my mind.”
“You’ve posted each time increasinly insisting I do so.”
“You’re not going to get what you want out of this.”
“I see you getting frustrated…”
No, to all of these.
You aren’t in my head, but you are posting and responding as though you are. Please stop. As I criticized before, you’re playing pop-psychologist and you are wildly off-base. There can’t be any sort of communication between us as long as you keep deciding how I am responding to you and making up a funny voice (or so to speak) for me.
I haven’t asked for you to or demanded you change your mind. I have laid out where I think your logic falls down. If you don’t agree with my argument, hey, fine, but I haven’t seen you respond yet to any of that except to insist I (or whomever) am doing such-and-so and feeling this-or-that.
I know you wouldn’t like it much if I decided to have a conversation by claiming “your failure to own up to the bad phrasing is because you don’t want to bruise your indie ego and thus be unable set yourself apart as superior to other gamers and people” because I know that’s exactly what certain jerks do to you elsewhere and you think very poorly of them for it.
What I want is a conversation based around examination of the various views and where they might be correct or incorrect in our various viewpoints, not a dismissal based on cheap psychoanalysis, which is what I’m getting (and is what actually and only frustrates and aggravates me whatever you might personally have decided for me otherwise).
So, if you’re telling me that I’m not going to get that, well, then yeah we’re done because why bother? I might as well be posting at therpgsite in that case fo